Conversation

Previously made private, now public, conversation with Steven, on philosophy:

3:44:53 PM Brigitte: OMG
3:44:57 PM Brigitte: I lovelovelove Mill
3:45:05 PM Vans Tenth Hero: who is this?!
3:45:11 PM Brigitte: I agree with everything Mill said/wrote in his essays
3:45:17 PM Brigitte: The Utilitarian.
3:45:22 PM Brigitte: The philosopher
3:45:23 PM Brigitte: MILL.
3:45:29 PM Vans Tenth Hero: oh
3:45:31 PM Vans Tenth Hero: John Stuart
3:45:33 PM Brigitte: YES
3:45:34 PM Vans Tenth Hero: I don’t know him.
3:45:36 PM Brigitte: lmao
3:45:42 PM Brigitte: You know OF him
3:45:45 PM Brigitte: And that is enough.
3:45:48 PM Vans Tenth Hero: No, I’ve never heard of him
3:45:51 PM Brigitte: …
3:45:57 PM Vans Tenth Hero: I don’t even know what Utilitarianism is…
3:45:58 PM Brigitte: then how’d you know his full name ey?
3:46:00 PM Brigitte: ………
3:46:01 PM Brigitte: O_O
3:46:03 PM Vans Tenth Hero: wikipedia.
3:46:06 PM Brigitte: R U SRS?
3:46:09 PM Brigitte: omg
3:46:10 PM Brigitte: omg
3:46:10 PM Vans Tenth Hero: yes…
3:46:10 PM Brigitte: omg
3:46:11 PM Brigitte: omg
3:46:11 PM Brigitte: omg
3:46:23 PM Vans Tenth Hero: All I know of philosophy is Randism and Stoicism
3:46:30 PM Vans Tenth Hero: I forsake the former and embrace the latter
3:46:34 PM Vans Tenth Hero: eh, it’s enough
3:47:06 PM Brigitte: lol
3:47:09 PM Brigitte: wtf
3:47:12 PM Brigitte: O_O
3:47:16 PM Brigitte: That is most unexpected
3:47:25 PM Vans Tenth Hero: well no use in torturing you
3:47:28 PM Brigitte: That you don’t know about utilitarianism
3:47:28 PM Vans Tenth Hero: go ahead and tell me about it then
3:48:10 PM Brigitte: Nonono
3:48:13 PM Brigitte: Too much
3:48:18 PM Brigitte: I could go in-depth
3:48:24 PM Brigitte: And that’s too much to type
3:48:27 PM Vans Tenth Hero: well
3:48:31 PM Vans Tenth Hero: just give me the very least then
3:48:44 PM Brigitte: Read Mill’s On Liberty.
3:48:47 PM Brigitte: It’s not that long
3:48:50 PM Vans Tenth Hero: No.
3:48:56 PM Vans Tenth Hero: I honestly just want to know the very least about it
3:48:59 PM Vans Tenth Hero: which you can tell me.
3:49:09 PM Brigitte: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Liberty
3:49:18 PM Brigitte: How about later tonight we discuss it?
3:49:28 PM Vans Tenth Hero: well, wikipedia is one thing
3:49:30 PM Brigitte: I love how Mill has elitist strains in his work.
3:49:31 PM Brigitte: XD
3:49:38 PM Vans Tenth Hero: what you’re saying doesn’t make sense to me
3:49:49 PM Vans Tenth Hero: you honestly do not think you can write just one sentence about it?
3:49:52 PM Vans Tenth Hero: in the vein of
3:50:01 PM Brigitte: okay fine
3:50:05 PM Brigitte: lemme think
3:50:08 PM Vans Tenth Hero: ‘Democracy is a thought process that says government by the people for the people and of the people is the greatest.’
3:50:25 PM Vans Tenth Hero: ‘but really it’s not ALL people, just the naturalized ones’
3:51:35 PM Brigitte: Alright, one thing Mill says is: If someone has a tolerable amount of common sense and experience his/her own laying out life is the best not because it is the best absolutely but b/c it is that person’s own.
3:51:49 PM Brigitte: Even if the person should make mistakes, or hurt themselves in the process
3:51:55 PM Brigitte: Autonomy, you know.
3:52:01 PM Vans Tenth Hero: Well, that’s just common sense.
3:52:15 PM Brigitte: People should experiment with their lives to find out which way is the best way of living a good life.
3:52:33 PM Vans Tenth Hero: Oh, I guess it isn’t common sense for everybody.
3:52:37 PM Brigitte: Yes, well start BELIEVING IT because you’ve tried to stop me from doing stuffz
3:52:43 PM Vans Tenth Hero: Forgive me, I’d forgotten you hadn’t seen Naruto.
3:52:47 PM Brigitte: lmao
3:52:48 PM Brigitte: >_>
3:53:05 PM Vans Tenth Hero: if you’d seen Naruto, you’d also understand why I try and stop you from doing things too.
3:53:14 PM Brigitte: My way of thinking has always been people can do whatever they want. Mill just explains that, in better words, of course.
3:53:28 PM Vans Tenth Hero: Alas, it’s only tangentally explored in Edward Goldrim’s Theorem of Anime Morality and Defiance.
3:53:31 PM Brigitte: lol
3:53:47 PM Vans Tenth Hero: essentially, it boils down to:
3:53:59 PM Vans Tenth Hero: the fewer people agree with you, the more reason you have of doing something
3:54:47 PM Brigitte: If you think about the harm principle then you’d see that maybe you can only interfere with people harming others, but you should not stop people if they harm themselves (say as in, making mistakes)
3:55:14 PM Brigitte: because it is my liberty to do as I see fit.
3:55:30 PM Brigitte: But that’s also me saying I am a more developed person than you if I should ignore your advice
3:55:47 PM Vans Tenth Hero: harm is a funny word to use
3:56:12 PM Vans Tenth Hero: since it has the connitation of physical harm
3:56:14 PM Brigitte: It’s called the harm principle. and I stated what it is and what it implies.
3:56:17 PM Vans Tenth Hero: isn’t that odd.
3:56:29 PM Brigitte: well… harm can also have to do with speech.
3:56:32 PM Vans Tenth Hero: anyway, I don’t believe there’s such a thing as a more developed person.
3:56:49 PM Brigitte: Harm insofar as it’s… an action which affects someone else.
3:57:08 PM Brigitte: Well, I happen to agree with Mill, and I am kind of elitist. ):
3:57:29 PM Vans Tenth Hero: Mm, well…
3:57:35 PM Vans Tenth Hero: I believe most of all in the human capacity for change.
3:57:46 PM Vans Tenth Hero: if you wish to call that development, fine.
3:58:29 PM Brigitte: a thought is coming to mind but I don’t know where I heard it from….
3:59:01 PM Vans Tenth Hero: Hmm, of what nature?
3:59:08 PM Brigitte: On progress and change.
3:59:41 PM Brigitte: Something like people are so opposed to change but that’s what brings about like progress…..
3:59:45 PM Brigitte: rawr. dunno where I read that
3:59:47 PM Brigitte: it’s a quote.
3:59:50 PM Vans Tenth Hero: hmm
4:00:16 PM Vans Tenth Hero: well of course, it’s too much to expect a good attitude from everyone
4:00:33 PM Vans Tenth Hero: and yet every time I see someone act the way I expect, I feel sad.
4:01:29 PM Brigitte: conformism.
4:01:37 PM Brigitte: That’s a strange way to think, but understandable.
4:01:42 PM Brigitte: I guess this is similar: “Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.”
4:02:04 PM Vans Tenth Hero: people…
4:02:08 PM Vans Tenth Hero: I don’t know if this is a universal thing
4:02:12 PM Vans Tenth Hero: or simply a product of the times
4:02:17 PM Vans Tenth Hero: but they are too selfish
4:02:23 PM Vans Tenth Hero: too in love with themselves
4:02:34 PM Brigitte: You can say everyone is selfish for almost anything
4:02:40 PM Vans Tenth Hero: but, it’s even more than that
4:02:50 PM Vans Tenth Hero: it’s that… so many people… just completely missed the point of life.
4:03:11 PM Brigitte: lol… “You live and learn. At any rate, you live.”
4:03:13 PM Vans Tenth Hero: I’m no better, I love my opinion just as much as other people love their own.
4:04:01 PM Vans Tenth Hero: but… I feel as though maybe… I respect other’s more, as though I can slowly chip away a lifetime of selfish cynicism and replace it with a view drowning in beauty
4:04:23 PM Vans Tenth Hero: we love the stars not because they are all of one color, but because each shines with a unique light.
4:04:28 PM Vans Tenth Hero: I don’t care what color you shine…
4:04:30 PM Vans Tenth Hero: but you must shine.
4:04:37 PM Vans Tenth Hero: I hope I can live by that.
4:05:37 PM Brigitte: That’s very difficult ….
4:05:54 PM Brigitte: But I think I already think that way.
4:05:58 PM Brigitte: Maybe.
4:06:17 PM Vans Tenth Hero: it sometimes seems like it’s very hard to live
4:06:27 PM Vans Tenth Hero: as though there’s a thousand lessons learned you shouldn’t forget
4:06:43 PM Vans Tenth Hero: but it’s easy, maybe, if you simply embrace the euphoria of an idea, rather than the specifics of countless lessons
4:06:55 PM Vans Tenth Hero: it isn’t about adjusting your behavior for a specific situation
4:06:58 PM Brigitte: You’re changing subjects much too quickly, dearest.
4:07:11 PM Vans Tenth Hero: more about not having to adjust your behavior so that your reaction to each situation is the correct one
4:07:19 PM Vans Tenth Hero: it’s all related, I think.
4:07:20 PM Vans Tenth Hero: maybe.
4:07:40 PM Brigitte: “Philosophical” conversations always go in all directions.
4:07:45 PM Brigitte: It’s about connecting the ideas at the en
4:07:46 PM Brigitte: +d
4:07:54 PM Vans Tenth Hero: I never learned how
4:08:10 PM Vans Tenth Hero: see, to me, I watch people and think: I can do that, I can be that person.
4:08:28 PM Vans Tenth Hero: even though there’s a natural tendency for me to think: ‘just be yourself, that’s what’s most important.’
4:09:00 PM Vans Tenth Hero: but I think maybe it’s impossible to be yourself, or if it isn’t who I am isn’t that great
4:09:01 PM Brigitte: I think you’re torn between wanting to better yourself, though it might SEEM like conformism, and also trying to be an individual
4:09:35 PM Brigitte: I think it is individualism if you’re trying to experiment and learn to live life the best way
4:09:52 PM Vans Tenth Hero: well
4:10:02 PM Vans Tenth Hero: one shouldn’t commit to an idea unless they’re fully prepared to become the idea.
4:10:07 PM Vans Tenth Hero: just two days ago
4:10:14 PM Vans Tenth Hero: I saw someone on television and thought:
4:10:21 PM Brigitte: wait wait
4:10:22 PM Brigitte: wait
4:10:22 PM Brigitte: wait
4:10:24 PM Brigitte: STOP
4:10:27 PM Brigitte: omg you’re changing the subject
4:10:30 PM Brigitte: I’m not done
4:10:32 PM Vans Tenth Hero: No, I’m not!
4:10:34 PM Vans Tenth Hero: This is the same conversation
4:10:39 PM Brigitte: Okay well lemme say something
4:10:39 PM Brigitte: omg
4:10:49 PM Brigitte: i’m talking to you, elizabeth, and nefi irl
4:10:51 PM Brigitte: so geez
4:10:56 PM Brigitte: can’t type as fast as yo
4:10:57 PM Brigitte: +u
4:10:58 PM Brigitte: okay
4:11:02 PM Vans Tenth Hero: humph.
4:11:03 PM Vans Tenth Hero: How rude..
4:11:24 PM Brigitte: well… what you were saying… You don’t want to ignore what has already been learned by others that have experimented and learned to life life “better”
4:11:36 PM Brigitte: But you still have to interpret the evidence yourself
4:11:42 PM Brigitte: So it’s okay to want to “be like other people”
4:11:45 PM Brigitte: to better yourself
4:11:50 PM Brigitte: you are still an individual
4:12:01 PM Brigitte: *live life
4:12:17 PM Vans Tenth Hero: I always find myself playing the role of the clown
4:12:30 PM Vans Tenth Hero: am I simply tired of it, or do I want a life with more meaning?
4:12:44 PM Vans Tenth Hero: for someone who loves fiction as much as me, you’d think I could be content with fiction.
4:12:52 PM Brigitte: Even people with meaning and purpose need humor
4:12:59 PM Brigitte: Fiction isn’t real though….
4:13:06 PM Vans Tenth Hero: but it’s as though I cannot stand a wasted effort
4:13:12 PM Vans Tenth Hero: as though some use must come from the fiction too
4:13:23 PM Vans Tenth Hero: incorporating the parts of others I want to see in myself
4:13:26 PM Brigitte: You can learn from fiction.
4:13:51 PM Brigitte: It’s an experiment in itself without real-life repercussions.
4:14:10 PM Vans Tenth Hero: ‘be the trouble you want to see in the world.’
4:14:14 PM Vans Tenth Hero: in other words
4:14:22 PM Vans Tenth Hero: hmm, I don’t know.
4:14:42 PM Brigitte: Well, what do you mean by trouble?
4:14:52 PM Vans Tenth Hero: I just didn’t like the old quote
4:14:55 PM Vans Tenth Hero: the original
4:14:56 PM Vans Tenth Hero: it’s modified
4:16:03 PM Vans Tenth Hero: ah dammit
4:16:08 PM Vans Tenth Hero: I just realized by having this conversation I broke a promise to one of my important people
4:16:14 PM Brigitte: Uh… wha?
4:16:20 PM Brigitte: How is that possible?
4:16:23 PM Vans Tenth Hero: could we perhaps change the subject?
4:16:28 PM Brigitte: What kind of promise could you have broken?
4:16:36 PM Vans Tenth Hero: let me try and find it!
4:16:37 PM Brigitte: Which subject are you referring to
4:16:39 PM Brigitte: ??
4:16:43 PM Brigitte: We touched on a few
4:16:47 PM Vans Tenth Hero: all of them
4:16:56 PM Brigitte: … oh wow.
4:17:34 PM Vans Tenth Hero: I made a promise
4:17:37 PM Vans Tenth Hero: and then forgot
4:17:43 PM Vans Tenth Hero: haha that’s pretty embarrassing if you think about it
4:17:53 PM Brigitte: But what’s this promise?
4:18:15 PM Brigitte: And how can we, by having a conversation, have broken it?
4:18:17 PM Vans Tenth Hero: hmm it was something along the lines
4:18:32 PM Vans Tenth Hero: of trying to seem more badass but not discussing my problems with anyone with a vagina.
4:18:36 PM Vans Tenth Hero: that may have been the exact wording.
4:18:50 PM Brigitte: How are we discussing your problems?
4:18:52 PM Brigitte: And!
4:18:55 PM Brigitte: I think it seems more GAY
4:19:01 PM Brigitte: to describe your shit to a GUY
4:19:07 PM Vans Tenth Hero: only the one, at that
4:19:19 PM Vans Tenth Hero: eh, I should never have troubled you with my inner thoughts.
4:19:21 PM Brigitte: In any case, I see myself as any guy’s best friend.
4:19:23 PM Vans Tenth Hero: please forgive me <3
4:19:28 PM Vans Tenth Hero: *peace sign*
4:19:29 PM Brigitte: You can’t be fucking serious.
4:19:34 PM Vans Tenth Hero: am I ever?
4:19:36 PM Brigitte: I saw you as more MANLY
4:19:41 PM Brigitte: for being able to THINK
4:19:45 PM Brigitte: and philosophize
4:19:53 PM Vans Tenth Hero: there’s no problems with that, of course
4:19:53 PM Brigitte: I didn’t see this as you discussing your PROBS with me
4:20:06 PM Vans Tenth Hero: the problem comes when it turns into my complaining about my inability to form an identity
4:20:16 PM Vans Tenth Hero: since it’s a problem I’ve had for the last few years
4:20:19 PM Vans Tenth Hero: and unlikely to go away…
4:20:31 PM Brigitte: Uhm, sorry to say, I think a lot of people have this problem.
4:20:45 PM Brigitte: The smarter ones are the ones that realize it and attempt to want to fix it
4:20:55 PM Vans Tenth Hero: heh
4:21:09 PM Vans Tenth Hero: sometimes I think it’s the people who simple ignore the problem that have it best off
4:21:21 PM Brigitte: Ignorance is stupid.
4:21:23 PM Vans Tenth Hero: like certain physical aliments, it goes away as long as you don’t touch it.
4:21:34 PM Brigitte: I’d rather be a bit more miserable thinking about it than live obliviously.
4:21:44 PM Brigitte: I don’t think that’s the case.
4:21:56 PM Vans Tenth Hero: the truth is I do have an identity
4:21:58 PM Brigitte: You can’t compare a physical illness to … thoughts
4:22:02 PM Brigitte: Of course you do.
4:22:05 PM Vans Tenth Hero: but when I turn off my mind and see the way I act
4:22:06 PM Brigitte: But it’s ever-evolving
4:22:12 PM Vans Tenth Hero: I’m not pleased
4:22:16 PM Vans Tenth Hero: it’s not the kind of person I am inside
4:22:22 PM Brigitte: You mean to say
4:22:27 PM Brigitte: It’s not who you are in THEORY
4:22:30 PM Brigitte: not inside
4:22:37 PM Vans Tenth Hero: I mean to say
4:22:38 PM Vans Tenth Hero: ‘inside’
4:22:46 PM Brigitte: By theory I mean who you want to be
4:22:55 PM Brigitte: But who you want to be can sometimes prove to be a difficult task
4:23:01 PM Vans Tenth Hero: by ‘inside’ I mean who I really am
4:23:07 PM Brigitte: especially if you believe in self-perfection
4:23:15 PM Vans Tenth Hero: but of course, that person is impossible to portray
4:23:37 PM Vans Tenth Hero: my depth… my amazing mind… who can feel these things just from meeting me?
4:23:58 PM Vans Tenth Hero: that’s why I need a han-bang ultra awesome personality to try and portray my inner thoughts best
4:24:10 PM Vans Tenth Hero: Hmm, I’m still breaking that promise, how troublesome.
4:24:51 PM Brigitte: I think that comes with time.
4:24:59 PM Brigitte: No one can just KNOW you are great
4:25:09 PM Brigitte: unless everyone thinks like me:
4:25:16 PM Brigitte: everyone is amazing until proven wrong
4:25:27 PM Vans Tenth Hero: I would rather people initially dislike me
4:25:39 PM Brigitte: and be proven wrong that way?
4:25:44 PM Brigitte: yeah… seems a better way to live
4:25:49 PM Brigitte: be surprised and pleased
4:25:50 PM Vans Tenth Hero: hah, there’s no point in trying unless you have a long way to go!
4:25:53 PM Brigitte: instead of disappointed
4:25:53 PM Vans Tenth Hero: isn’t that true.
4:26:14 PM Vans Tenth Hero: anyway, anyway
4:26:15 PM Vans Tenth Hero: moving onward
4:26:24 PM Brigitte: more like I have a meeting in 4 minutes
4:26:27 PM Brigitte: so!
4:26:30 PM Vans Tenth Hero: alas
4:26:39 PM Vans Tenth Hero: to end this conversation on such a terrible not
4:26:40 PM Vans Tenth Hero: +e
4:27:11 PM Brigitte: lol
4:27:15 PM Brigitte: it’s not terrible
4:27:26 PM Vans Tenth Hero: tsk tsk
4:27:29 PM Vans Tenth Hero: one day you will get used to me
4:27:34 PM Vans Tenth Hero: it doesn’t normally take people this long.
4:27:40 PM Vans Tenth Hero: mendokusai
4:28:18 PM Brigitte: used to you?
4:28:22 PM Brigitte: i adore you
4:28:29 PM Brigitte: but i gtg

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